Say your prayers to saying your prayers! Councils' prayers to be challenged

Kevin: Less than 6% of the population are members of political parties, yet most councillors are members of political parties and form party political groups on the council. Most prayers at the council are not of my denomination and I’d welcome non-Christian prayers at least once in the municipal year, no one is obliged to take part and prayers are now separate to the meeting, only the formal ‘full council’ starts with prayers. Both Easter and Christmas are feasts more or less taken from pre-Christian religions. Nevertheless today they are recognised Christian feast days, on these feast days councils close their services down, it doesn’t do this for Honica, Eid ul-Fitr or indeed the Orthodox/Coptic/Ethiopian Christian feasts of Easter and Christmas; ergo by the NSS’s own standards closing for Easter and Christmas is discriminatory.

Keith: Daytime meetings is a far bigger impediment to younger people being willing to stand as councillors. My fellow ward councillor is an atheist and in his twenties, prayers just didn’t figure in his decision to stand. I have no wish to impose my faith on anyone else; I hope I show respect and tolerance to those of other faiths or no faith. I was uncomfortable with the concept of ‘Christian Leadership’ that was pushed whilst an Officer Cadet at RMAS, a concept now abandoned I’m pleased to say. I think dis-establishing the church in England and Scotland, would be a better use of the NSS’s time.

David L: Richard Dawkins saying grace at high table was reported in the Guardian Backbencher column “Spotted at New College, Oxford, last weekend: Richard Dawkins, saying grace at dinner. Well, when in Rome”. The good Professor is not a closet believer; he was merely fulfilling an Oxford tradition. Benedictus benedicat.

I can't agree with my namesake. I rather doubt whether Richard Dawkins does say grace (in Latin, or any other language) at high table at Oxford. But the key point is that saying prayers at any public event has the effect of making people like me (who can no longer believe) feel excluded. As there are now a significant number of agnostics and atheists in British society, that can't be a good thing. Why not have a level playing field, where a period of quiet- as in Totnes council meetings - allows for whatever interpretation each individual wishes.

Councillors do themselves no favours in the public's eyes by having prayers at their meetings. The huge majority of people nowadays avoid religious services and most ordinary people are astonished to learn that council meetings start with prayers - I challenge some of the councillors who defend prayers as 'traditional' to go and ask some people on the street what they think about the prayers - it will be a real wake up call.
The prayers are a genuine impediment to younger people being willing to stand as councillors and should be discontinued in what is now a primarily secular country.

Only 6% of the population go to church on a regular basis, while half of the British people now describe themselves as ‘Christian’. Therefore, it does seem odd that the only place we're likely to encounter Christian prayers said in public is in the Council Chamber - paid for by all of us.

Tradition certainly has its place, but not at the expense of making our democracy open to all.

It's unfortunate how some elected members can't see how the imposition of a ritual associated with their own faith can be a barrier to the involvement of others with different beliefs. Fortunately, other Devon councillors are pressing for a level playing field for all.

... and Christmas Day was a mid-winter festival long before Christianity, so we can all celebrate it in the way we want to.

I agree with David, I think the same thing happens in both houses if Parliament where prayers are said but some people enter the house after prayers and before the start of business. Still it does explain why Jesus wasn't born in Devon; they couldn't find 3 wise men and a Virgin!!

If Arch-atheist Richard Dawkins, Oxford University Charles Simonyi Professor of the Public Understanding of Science, says grace (in Latin) at high table, doubtless with his fingers crossed; what possible objection can there be to prayers at the mainly ceremonial full council meetings – both are tradition. Most councils allow officers and councillors to be absent from this part of the proceedings – which at Teignbridge and Teignmouth are not part of the formal meeting.

Prayers aren’t necessarily Christian; a mayor/chairman of a non-Christian faith might appoint a padre his/her own faith. Devon County Council had a Muslim priest to lead prayer on one occasion. Dick Perthrick a confirmed and open atheist, when mayor of Teignmouth nevertheless had a Christian padre.

All Devon councils close their normal services down on the Christian festivals of Christmas and Easter – therefore following the logic of the NSS the councils are discriminating against residents of non Christian faith or no faith (not forgetting Orthodox Christians who celebrate Christmas and Easter on different days), who can not access services on these days. I think the NSS should take things to the logical conclusion and demand that all council service are run on 25th December, Unison will love them.

Pax vobiscum

There was a bit of a fuss when the Roman Catholic Mayor of Totnes very sensibly decided a couple of years ago to do away with prayers before Council meetings and replaced them with a short period of silence for reflection or private prayer or even perhaps worrying about whether you had locked the front door when coming out. The fuss soon died down and council meetings don't seem to have been any the worse for them.

As Doc says, council meetings are secular events - business meetings in fact - and should have no connection with religion.

I would like to see the annual mayoral service also disontinued. Christianity may have been part of our culture in the past but we are no longer subject to the church and few people bother about it except on high days and holidays.

Local Authorities should serve the whole community impartially. As secular bodies they should act in a neutral way between all communities regardless of their religion or belief.

Ending prayers isn’t about attacking Christian beliefs; it’s about the sense of exclusion, of being made to feel an outsider, in a context in which inclusion should be a core value. I would object just as strongly if councillors in a predominantly Muslim area were expected to say Muslim prayers before a meeting.

A compromise would be where prayers before Council meetings were replaced by a short period of quiet during which people can pray, meditate, think or do whatever they feel is appropriate.

Couldn't agree more. How upsetting for those of a different faith or not wishing to take part in Christian rituals.

BUT (and there is a but), this is a primarily Christian country and Christianity is a part of our culture. I feel it is vital that our culture is strengthened rather than degraded.

So the answer couldn't be more simple. Schedule a time for prayers a short time before opening the meeting and make it clear to participants, visitors etc when this will happen and then allow a period for those not participating to come into the room afterwards. The actual prayers should not play any part in the proceedings of the meeting at all.

Faith and politics should never mix - it doesn't work. But then it's important to keep culture & tradition which strengthens communities.

What's really sad is that there are those who feel their own beliefs should be put before the beliefs of others. Not very Christian! Working together is a principal that anyone with real faith would understand.